Coming Through Slaughter
I have never seen anyone exploit the death of a relationship quite like Josephine Gillis. Jo outdoes the best in the field. I thought I had come across some outstanding revisionist history with Michael Ondaatje’s The Collected Works of Billy the Kid and his tragic, impressionistic novel Coming Through Slaughter, the fictionalized retelling of the story of Buddy Bolden, an early New Orleans jazz pioneer who lost his talent, and everything else in his life, to insanity.
What is remarkable about Coming Through Slaughter is the fragmented, free flowing, and ever-changing tone of the narrative. In telling Bolden’s compelling and heartbreaking story, Ondaatje reaches for a style that attempts to emulate, on paper, the syncopations of jazz. He succeeds, in my opinion, better than Kerouac ever did.
Ondaatje captures something in Slaughter — a preoccupation in his work, incidentally — that is haunting, disturbing, and beautiful all at the same time. It is the concept that every individual human life is unique and there is more than “one story” to any life history. Life is a complex mosaic, one person sees you that way, another views you another way. If asked to reflect upon a friend’s passing, one person may say you were a sinner while another labels you as a saint.
All of which brings us back to the point, back to Josephine Gillis’s remarkable work of revisionist history at 10086 Sunset Boulevard. From October 2005 to the present day I have played a key role in Jo’s attempts to rewrite her personal history for public consumption. A role I have been cast in against my will and I have not spoken out about. Until now.
Jo and I were together for a good many years. Jo and I separated for the final time in late 2005, after a brief reconciliation that had its moments of tension as I illustrated in a flash fiction piece for 8763 Wonderland called Rain and Poetry:
“It’s raining.”“Yep.”
“Read me a poem.”
“What?”
“I want to get all comfy-cozy in bed under the sheets and listen to you read me a poem.”
“Umm – okay. Let me just get into my robe and then I need to do a last e-mail check and put the cell phone on charge and –”
“Jesus. Forget I said anything. You fucking ruin it every time.”
“Ruin what?”
“I asked you to read me a poem.”
“And I said I would –”
“—after. After you do this and do that and probably have one last cigarette and another shot of whatever you’re drinking. Go do what you’ve got to do. I’m going to sleep.”
“Goddamnit, Joanne. Fine. Don’t go to sleep. I’ll read you a fucking poem, for shit sake. Which one? From which book?”
“Forget it. I don’t want to put you out.”
“Do you have any idea what kind of a day I had today? I do not need this shit from you right now, Joanne. It looks like the studio is going to change their mind about the script so you can just forget that Malibu summer beach house for now, honey. Pipe dream.”
“I’m sorry.”
“What?”
“I said, I’m sorry. I didn’t know. You haven’t said anything until now.”
“Because you didn’t fucking ask. All you were interested in was some goddamn poem.”
Yes, there was another woman involved in my break-up with Jo. I also wrote about this in a less-fictional form in September 2005 with a Wonderland posting aptly titled Wallowing in My Gaping Character Flaws.
It’s all behind me now.
Josephine halted all communication with me in December 2006. She even blocked my ISP from posting comments at 10086 Sunset Boulevard, a site that I had a major hand in creating. But it never became what it was supposed to be. Instead, Jo took the site in a new direction, wrapping herself up in the morbid shell of a woman scorned. In a passage at Sunset she once referred to herself as “a dangerous time bomb full of raging hormones, bitter disappointment and shattered dreams.”
Today I curiously sauntered over to 10086 Sunset Boulevard to have a look-see. The site has been redesigned. Good. But Josephine, who used the scorned woman routine, she asserts, to shed unwanted pounds and attain a new, more radiant viewpoint on life is still spinning a revisionist’s tale of events. A new posting at the redesigned site, an introduction to Jo’s “Story So Far”, titled The Road To Sunset, is deserving of some commentary from one of the Ondaatje-like characters who was a witness to events essayed and who has a completely different perspective.
Let’s begin. Josephine writes:
10086SunsetBoulevard.com was started in the fall of 2005, just after I experienced a couple of life changing events. The nutshell version is this; while I was away from my home in Los Angeles on a visit with my family to help scatter my Dad’s ashes, the man I had been with for seven years, moved a woman into our home and sent me an email telling me not to bother coming back.
This is sort of a new spin on things. Now I am being cast as the evil bastard who dumped the poor grieving waif while she was out performing some sacred ceremonial duty. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Jo’s mother, a very upright and uptight British national with a snide mean streak that gnaws at Jo’s insides, simply could not care for her husband as he lay dying from cancer. She tried, bless her, but she just couldn’t do it, preferring to have Jo around to do her bidding and shopping and everything else for her. The problem is Jo and I were living in L.A. Jo’s parents were up in Northern California. Despite the fact that Jo’s wonderful brother and sister-in-law, who live much closer to Mum than we did, offered to step in and help in any and every way they could, Jo would still run to the airport the moment Mum phoned and ordered “Come!” And it was motivated by more than an obligation to her ailing father (whom I loved dearly) but we will explore that in a moment.
After her father’s passing, Jo’s mother continued to insist on Jo’s presence in her home. She was completely incapable of taking care of herself and she would accept no one else but Jo to do everything for her. It wasn’t just the grieving process. Jo’s mother was a co-dependent all of her life and incapable of pesky things like driving or making the right choice where an important decision is concerned.
Jo and I were trying to create a new life for ourselves in L.A. But Jo’s frequent comings and goings, always at her mother’s insistence, were putting a great strain on the relationship. Here I was, alone in a residential hotel in Glendale, on disability and suffering from another flare-up of severe psoriasis which made it difficult for me to walk or use my hands effectively, and Jo, when asked directly to choose between returning home and helping to take care of me or staying in Northern California and caring for a selfish woman who could have fended for herself if she had even tried, had to opt for dear old Mum.
There’s backstory on this wicked co-dependence between mother and daughter but, as I said, more on that when it’s relevance arises. And as far as the ash-scattering is concerned, that is an event that happened rather matter-of-factly, without a great degree of ceremony or planning, during one of Jo’s many trips to the Bay Area. In other words, she never booked a flight and hopped a plane with the specific intent of sending Dad’s mortal remains to the four winds on the runway of Travis Air Force Base.
In the second paragraph of “The Road To Sunset”, Jo pens:
When I read through my story, I’d like to remove all of those postings from the archives of the website or subject it all to revisionist history. I may add footnotes at some point, you know like “what the hell was I thinking?”, but I will leave the story up, because I still get e-mails from people who have stumbled upon my story and have been helped by it and even made better decisions when it came to their revenge plans.
“Their revenge plans”. Yeah, that’s part of the niche market that Jo cynically hoped to trap at 10086 Sunset Boulevard. She was planning to exploit the sliver market with a Scorned Woman Cookbook — this is the book she is always making references to someday writing — a collection of the recipes that helped her lose weight in order to wreak … revenge? How is this revenge? I’ll tell you how in the way Jo’s mind works. It goes something like this: “I’ll show you! I’ll slim down, get myself lookin’ really hot and then you’ll be sorry we’re no longer together!”
Sorry. I’m not that base. And why the simmering thirst for revenge?. I haven’t conducted a search for that keyword on Jo’s site but I’m certain it must appear dozens of times. But, hey, I’m glad that the site I helped launch aided women the world over in sorting through their “revenge plans.” Jesus, who needs Lorena Bobbitt, right?
Jo continues:
I looked for help when I was at the worst of my heartbreak, but found mostly bitter, scorned women, still talking about the event years and years after it happened. I couldn’t imagine what life would be like, if I didn’t let go of the painful feelings and the sting of betrayal. It wouldn’t have been a life worth living.
Memo to Jo Gillis: Check a calendar. This is January 2008. You are clearly still bitter and “still talking about the event years and years after it happened.” I’m just sayin’.
And then, the only other graph I’m going to comment upon is as follows:
Concentrating on pulling my own life back together, losing weight and recovering became my obsession. I was fat, broke and almost 50 when this happened. These weren’t the best odds to work with, but work with them I did. I wanted to heal and not remain scorned and bitter. I wanted to lose weight and I did. I feel shallow to tell you that the euphoria of fitting into a pair of jeans that hadn’t fit in years almost seemed to mend my broken heart.
Here’s where the co-dependence with Mum weaves its way back into the fabric of Jo’s tattered life. Jo, in my opinion, was never “fat”. A few pounds overweight, sure. Due to a sedentary lifestyle. Little to no exercise and lots of caloric intake. And why not? She didn’t have anything better to do than watch TV and graze through a couple of candy bars and a bag of chips because Jo Gillis did not work for a living for most of the years we were together, particularly the last three years. It was up to me, the guy who was on disability and not supposed to be working too much anyway, to bring in the bacon.
Oh, sure, I snagged Jo a few transcription jobs here and there — from clients of mine — but otherwise she brought in no income and expressed no interest in doing so despite repeated promises to the contrary. Talk about another strain in the relationship. But you won’t hear about that at 10086 Sunset Boulevard. So that’s why she was “broke” when everything fell apart. She had no visible means of support outside of myself and her mother, who would always send money when the chips were down, hence Jo’s sense of obligation to run to Mum when she yelled “Jump!” because it was easier to carry on that twisted co-dependent relationship than to get a job and join the rest of us over here in the material world where providing for one’s own creature comforts is more than just something you academically discuss as an adjunct to a conversation on Darwinism.
In the opening pages of “Coming Through Slaughter”, Ondaatje reconstructs an old black community in New Orleans of which “there is little recorded history.” There is, I am afraid to say, plenty of recorded history on the jagged rips and tears that constituted my relationship with Jo Gillis — a long history, I might add, we’d known each other since 1979 — and this offering is made to the reader with the intent of creating some balance, of presenting another perspective that has heretofore been sleeping in the shadows.
Related: “Smoke: A Trace Story”

January 29, 2008 at 9:41 am
That’s always the great temptation of doing an autobiographical series - to put yourself in the best light, to make yourself the victim, etc. I’m not even sure if it’s a malicious thing, most times - most people do what they do because they really are convinced it’s the best choice at the time.
In doing my own series I’ve tried to keep myself honest by never ever posting a piece without having it first reviewed by at least David (who was either present for the events in question, or has heard my stories a million times and can call me out on inconsistancies, and whom I trust to be brutally honest), occasionally consulting with others who knew me at the time the event took place or who were present. I’ve also tried very hard to allow for my own fault in events.
But it is tremendously difficult. Without honest feedback from other people it is all to easy to create a version of history in which we are always the hero of our own story.
January 29, 2008 at 12:28 pm
True, Julie. And as I mentioned in the piece, by blocking my ISP from posting comments at Sunset, Jo robbed me of the opportunity to present another side of the story, a mirror image where she might not have come off so heroic, perhaps more tragic.
Like Norma Desmond.
January 29, 2008 at 12:35 pm
I took the time to read the post you are referring to in its entirety, Brimmer, and some of the back story, and all I can say is way to misrepresent. The woman has clearly moved on, and you clearly haven’t. Her telling of the story from her point of view (which everyone is entitled to) has been so discreet that it would be impossible to connect it to you at all without this display of…well, let’s just leave it at display.
When one’s life goes astray in the way that yours has, I understand the tendency is to be hurtful and to lash out at others, but unfortunately the only person who comes out of this piece stinking is you. Hatred and bitterness can eat you alive, but only with your permission, so do yourself a favor and starve the beast. You’ll live longer.
Best wishes.
January 29, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Sorry for the double post, I got an error when I posted it the first time and I didn’t see the “your post is awaiting moderation” thing. Now I see them both.
January 29, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Impossible to connect it to me? Yeah, except for those embedded hyperlinks to my old website, 8763 Wonderland. How has she moved on if she is still exploiting the demise of the relationship almost three years after the fact? As I said in the piece, I’ve been quiet until now. My identity is not wrapped up in the failure of this relationship. Hers clearly is.
And, pray tell, how has my life “gone astray”? You have not demonstrated in any way, shape, or form that you know jack about me. I don’t have any friends or acquaintances named “Long Time Brimmer Fan” (that would look strange on a birth certificate, wouldn’t it?)
January 29, 2008 at 1:16 pm
It’s difficult to do autobiographical work, because we do, as Julie said, have a tendency to paint ourselves in a better light.
The best you can do is write as accurately as you remember and take into account discrepencies others may point out.
But she blocked your ISP, she didn’t even want to give you that chance, which leads me to believe that of the two sides, yours might be more accurate, despite what LTBF says.
January 29, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Thanks, Zel.
January 29, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Well, you do know me as another online persona, and I am a long time fan of your writing, but I chose to remain anonymous because regardless of the concerned tone of my comment I didn’t think you would receive it that way. And since you’ve proven time and time again that nothing and no one is sacred and there is no line you won’t cross, I prefer to let you have at it without trashing me too. Guess I do know something about you, huh?
Look, to a rational individual Ms. Gillis doesn’t appear to be exploiting anyone or anything. Her intent seems to be to help other scorned women move on with their lives without giving in to to the urge to get revenge or self-destruct. She says as much in her post but you pulled out a few sentences out of context and twisted it to mean something else entirely. I have no doubt that you actually see it that way, and I only wanted to point out that it isn’t necessarily the perception of other readers not so close to the situation.
You have posted in great detail about the circumstances of your life, but maybe I’m wrong and wallowing in shit in a dive residential hotel, living hand to mouth and asking for handouts is what you call success. To each his own.
You are your own worst enemy Mr. Jacobs, and I still wish you nothing but the best.
January 29, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Nothing is out of context, LTBF. The four quotes I pulled from Jo’s posting are in the exact chronological order that they appear in on her site. Your adamant refusal to acknowledge the exploitation demonstrates a clear bias.
As far as the circumstances of my life are concerned, you only know what I choose to share tnrough writing that is a tad more honest than Jo’s. I’ve never been afraid to admit my failings. If you are a true fan of my work, which I doubt, you would already be aware of that.
January 29, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Honestly, LTBF, why doesn’t Jo start a 12-step program for vengeful scorned women? In case you missed it in the subtext, I don’t buy into this whole victimization mindset that has run rampant in our culture for some time now. Life shits on you, move on. Don’t stand there and wallow in it and don’t pat yourself on the back too hard for surviving it.
January 29, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Oh trust me, I didn’t miss a thing.
Out of context, yes, in relation to the piece as a whole which is precisely about NOT allowing yourself to live in victimhood. I read it again and no matter how hard I try I can’t turn it into what you are seeing. I also don’t see any vitriol similar to yours coming your way from Jo Gillis, in the current post or in any of the others. It’s about her journey, not you and yours. And was it really necessary to bring her family into it? Like I said, nothing is sacred, and that says something about you more than anybody else.
I guess one needs your approval to join the Brimmer fan club these days. It’s become that exclusive, has it? I am a fan, and even when you are in attack mode it’s always a well written rant. Normally I would read something like this and move on, but today I thought someone should be honest with you. So there you have it whether you can hear it or not.
I honestly hope everything is going well for you in Vegas and that the hard times are behind you. Take care of yourself.
January 29, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Oh.
I recall reading that piece on poems you did back on Wonderland. Oh. I’m a fan too, R.
It’s the way you write, and the way you put things together here.
ps: one day when you get a chance take a look at Ondaatje’s poetry. Whew. Really something.
January 29, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I generally assume in any sort of tale of relationships past the truth lies somewhere both within and outside of both perspectives, like an emotional venn diagram.
Jo has an image of a man drowning in a pool behind the woman on the laptop in the upper right corner of her website - this is not imagery chosen by a person who has dealt with her relationship issues.
To be fair - the above article does requrie that Jo is still in Rodger’s thoughts, so it can hardly be said that he has completely moved on either.
This is coming from a woman who has spent the last two years writing a blog series which thus far has focused on all the horrible men I’ve been with, while trying to pepper it with disclaimers that they may not all be horrible men - that might just be my colorful perspective on them.
There is no such thing as an honest, objective version of events - especially when they involve something as emotional as a relationship gone wrong. Of course both Rodger and Jo’s versions paint the other person in a negative light - to expect anything else would be to expect either one of them to be just short of sainthood. And Rodger is certainly no saint - it’s part of his charm.
To his credit, Rodger himself acknowledges this concept in this very post -
“It is the concept that every individual human life is unique and there is more than “one story” to any life history. Life is a complex mosaic, one person sees you that way, another views you another way. If asked to reflect upon a friend’s passing, one person may say you were a sinner while another labels you as a saint.”
I wasn’t intending to take anyone’s side in my first comment - I was merely making an observation. One that could be applied equally to both parties versions of the matter.
January 29, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Julie, my take on it is that the man in the pool is an homage to the movie Sunset Blvd., which I’m guessing you haven’t seen. The address was 10086.
http://www.filmsite.org/suns.html
I also don’t wish to take sides, I just thought Brimmer’s version was unnecessarily mean and personal. He can tell his side without betraying confidences or misrepresenting what she wrote, that’s all.
January 29, 2008 at 6:40 pm
As usual, Julie, I appreciate and value your insight. You’ve become an important voice here at Carver’s Dog.
I need to clarify one — or perhaps a few — things here. Jo is not necessariilly in my thoughts. I often go to Jo’s site not because I haven’t “moved on” but because this is a website that I originally created, conceptualized, and indeed paid for in its first few months on the web. I promoted the hell out of it at Wonderland and those posts are still up and running.
But, more importantly, Jo still uses me as fodder for posts at Sunset and when she does I like to know what she is saying because to whatever degree, I am a public figure. Now, Longtime Brimmer Fan suggests, for instance, that he or she (I’m fairly certain LTBF is a “she” and I think I know who she is) does not see similar vitriol coming from Jo. No? Check out this post Jo made at Sunset on December 9:
“I was fortunate enough to make some prime contacts when I lived in Los Angeles, one of the very few perks of living with an alcoholic writer. The contacts stayed with me when he left and I’ll always appreciate their loyalty. Or maybe they stayed because I’m good at what I do and I don’t charge nearly enough. Most of the transcription is for people in the music industry, but sometimes I get some unusual side projects”
‘One of the few perks of living with an alcoholic writer’? Gee, what a sweet thing to say, especially after admitting that her “prime contacts” came from me.
But the overriding point that many seem to have overlooked in their comments, underscored by the above, is that I have not written a word about Jo Gillis since our break-up. Today is the first time I have spoken up. She, on the other hand, continues to cap on me while, unbelievably, still reaping the benefits of her association with me. Consider the second graph of the above-referenced post from Sunset:
“Recently I transcribed an infomercial for vibrators. I learned everything there is to know about vibrators and more. Some of them are as complicated as computers and by the time you’d read the instructions and figured out how to operate the thingy, you’d probably have forgotten what you were doing with the contraption in the first place. Too many bells and whistles… and lights. It was a surprisingly well written, entertaining and informative video. The credits rolled and I learned it was written by the aforementioned writer. Life is strange. Life mocks. You’ve got to have a sense of humor.”
That’s an awful lot of chatter about a dead relationship from someone who has “moved on”.
January 29, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I have read Ondaatje’s poetry, Val. Good stuff. Have not read his new novel, “Divisadero” yet but I do want to get my hands on it.
January 29, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Did you actually block my IP address? Kinda hypocritical after your criticism of Ms. Gillis, but hey whatever helps you get through the day dude.
Still sending you best wishes…
January 29, 2008 at 7:28 pm
It’s sad when love goes bad… it seems to curdle in proportion to how deep it was in the first place. Not something I’d wander into, LTBF.
January 29, 2008 at 7:35 pm
…I suppose I avoided the initial question there. It’s hard when people you like are fighting, and I don’t like picking sides.
But, I will have to agree that, empirically speaking, Rodger’s been less centered around his other half, and that he has been less vitriolic, as well.
January 29, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Thank you, David, but this isn’t a matter where anyone needs to choose sides
January 29, 2008 at 7:48 pm
My former other half. Altough I’ve never liked that phrase, insinuating that two halves make a whole. As Huxley wrote: “Propinquity is not fusion.” I believe that.
January 29, 2008 at 8:52 pm
I didn’t block your IP, LTBF. You logged in on a different IP address, a different handle (LTBV) and a different e-mail address.
January 29, 2008 at 9:05 pm
OK, I’ll try again. And BTW, I fully expected you to recognize who I am because I’m not one to hide, but what I don’t want is a bunch of personal mudslinging. If you really know, then you also know why. I’ll limit my comments to the subject at hand and what you have freely admitted to online, and I would appreciate it if you would do the same.
‘One of the few perks of living with an alcoholic writer.’ So you’re not an alcoholic writer, is that what you’re saying? If you admit that might be an accurate assessment of the situation, which you frequently do, then why is mentioning it and the rare perk that may have come from that such a horrible and vitriolic offense?
If I remember it correctly you were fully supportive of 10086 Sunset Boulevard, and the scorned woman premise behind it since before the beginning. In fact much of it was your idea. Later, when you thought it might have gone off track, I remember you mentioning that it was a shame because you thought it would be more successful the way it was. You encouraged her to tell that story and to turn it into a money making enterprise. What changed besides the fact that you are no longer on good terms?
There was no link to you personally until after you outed yourself as the object of Jo’s disaffection, and the only people who figured it out got there through you. So please don’t go there either because I know.
I sincerely don’t want to take sides, and I am just as sincerely a true fan and admirer, but what I would like to see is live and let live. If Jo wants to follow through with the site to the original conception, then don’t wish her ill. Get it? If you can’t say something nice don’t say anything. She’s not talking about you, at least not in a way that any of her visitors could ever tell
And no, I’m not Jo Gillis or anyone who is related to her, and she didn’t put me up to it, for anyone who is wondering.
January 29, 2008 at 10:12 pm
You are making this more personal than Jo Gillis has in a long time, LTBF. What is your personal stake in this?
January 29, 2008 at 10:19 pm
“I didn’t block your IP, LTBF. You logged in on a different IP address, a different handle (LTBV) and a different e-mail address.”
No, I changed IP, handle and email after the first comment disappeared and it still isn’t there. It was about the movie Sunset Blvd. and the guy in the pool . I’m sure it was a glitch with the blog because something similar happened earlier.
I have no desire to be on your case, I just want to ask you to get off of hers. Talk about your rotten ex-girlfriend (note the anonymity of it) all you want, because everyone is entitled, just don’t make it so personal.
Cheers.
January 29, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Again, I ask what is your personal stake here? You’re playing the role of personal advocate.
And let’s get back on topic since you wanna be so chatty: the topic, as referenced in the first graphs of the piece, is exploitation and revisionist history. Jo stands accused of both. How does her advocate plead again, please?
January 29, 2008 at 10:36 pm
My former other half. Altough I’ve never liked that phrase, insinuating that two halves make a whole. As Huxley wrote: “Propinquity is not fusion.” I believe that.
Yes, former, obviously.
I think relationships vary depending on the components.
Thank you, David, but this isn’t a matter where anyone needs to choose sides
Well, I’m not trying to, and I don’t, but I do think LTBF is treating you a bit unfairly. I’m sure Jo would say she has more reason to be upset and mention you, which may or may not be the case, but regardless you certainly haven’t been bashing her left and right, and this isn’t out of the blue, either.
Whew. Quite a sentence.
January 29, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I didn’t read his latest, but love the poem “tin roof” from Cinnamon Peeler’s Wife. R—what I like best about here is your brain?
hope I have said this in an ok fashion, blogwise. I have yet to learn how to be “online”–?
as in doing/saying the right thing per post. But know, your refs are so prescient to my own experience–it’s like talking to someone I relate to?
Seriously. It’s the brain.
Mean that. And also, you write the present moment — just like Carver.
My fav writing is like that. I admire you as a writer for that. As in Brain.
hope that was okay to say.
January 29, 2008 at 10:39 pm
David, LTBF has an agenda here. I know who she is and I will be announcing it shortly.
January 29, 2008 at 10:42 pm
How come I never get crazy, exciting arguments like this from my autobiographical posts?
I can’t decide if this makes me happy or bummed that my exes don’t have decent internet savvy.
January 29, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Of course it was okay to say, Val. The focus here usually is books and lit, that’s the way I try to keep it even when addressing the topic that’s got LTBF’s panties in a bunch.
January 29, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I didn’t read his latest, but love the poem “tin roof” from Cinnamon Peeler’s Wife. R—what I like best about here is your brain?
hope I have said this in an ok fashion, blogwise. I have yet to learn how to be “online”–?
as in doing/saying the right thing per post. But know, your refs are so prescient to my own experience–it’s like talking to someone I relate to?
Seriously. It’s the brain.
Mean that. And also, you write the present moment — just like Carver.
My fav writing is like that. I admire you as a writer for that. As in Brain.
hope that was okay to say.
Hey, there’s Valentina!
Your last comment lacked your usual style. That was more like the old days.
January 29, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I know who she is and I will be announcing it shortly.
Oh, no. Here we go. Time to escape to Sweden.
January 29, 2008 at 10:49 pm
I can’t decide if this makes me happy or bummed that my exes don’t have decent internet savvy.
January 29, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Why are you going to go there Rodger? I don’t have a personal stake in this, except to ask for peace. Anyone who thinks I’m being unfair doesn’t know what I know. I know what he said, she said, and I arrived at conclusions of my own that fall somewhere in between.
Everything I wrote was a direct rebuttal to what you wrote, which I do in fact believe is revisionist history. I would outline that in detail but I really don’t want to do that here, it’s not what I came here for. Send me an email and I’ll tell you exactly what I think.
I keep trying to make it clear that I think well of you, but sometimes I think your behavior is over the line. I’m sorry for being honest, but none of it is mean.
January 29, 2008 at 11:04 pm
You have rebutted nothing. I’m not sending you an e-mail. You have an agenda and don’t force my hand or I will reveal what it is. You know that it would discredit much of what you have written here today. I think well of you, too, so just back away from the keyboard, okay?
Another topic at hand here is my writing career. It doesn’t take the savvy of a webmaster to make the connection between 10086 Sunset Boulevard and 8763 Wonderland. It’s easy for a curious reader to find out who this “Dan” character is that Jo writes about.
January 29, 2008 at 11:07 pm
And what’s this about “peace”? Am I asking for war, counselor? No, I am not, just for the opportunity to speak my mind on my website about things your client writes about me.
January 29, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Do you want me to walk away from the keyboard or answer your questions? I can’t do both, but I guess either is entertainment for the guests.
January 29, 2008 at 11:24 pm
You’re assuming you’re being entertaining.
January 29, 2008 at 11:27 pm
But, okay, yeah, here’s a question for you to answer, LTBF. Why is it that when Word Press failed to post one of your comments (it turns out they’re doing server maintenance today and this evening) you rushed over to the Craig’s List Literary and Writing Forum — where I have been an active member for over five years — and post the following comment:
Carver’s Hypocrisy? 01/29 19:23:50
I disagreed with Brimmer’s last post on his blog, that he promoted here, and after much complaining about the fact that the subject of his criticism blocked his IP address so he couldn’t respond, HE BLOCKED MINE. The hypocrisy is stunning, but we’ve all become accustomed to that, haven’t we?
Check it out, he’s desperate for the page views.
January 29, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Here’s the entire Craigs List thread for anyone who cares to read it:
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=82393834
January 29, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Simple reason, it looked like both comments were nuked, and I wanted to goad you into responding. Sorry for the thing about the page views but I was ticked. See, I can be honest too.
Should we end it here, wish each other the best and live to fight another day?
January 29, 2008 at 11:38 pm
I wanted to goad you into responding
That about says it all, doesn’t it? Goodnight.
January 29, 2008 at 11:54 pm
LTBF, your comment about the man in the swimming pool was sitting in the spam. I approved it. It appears in chronological order at 6:19 PM above. In that comment you wrote:
Julie, my take on it is that the man in the pool is an homage to the movie Sunset Blvd., which I’m guessing you haven’t seen. The address was 10086.
Yet in the comments section over at the front page of 10086 Sunset Boulevard today
you wrote with reference to said image:
I have never seen you act bitter or scorned for one minute, and when I put myself in your shoes I imagine that it’s quite possible that the guy in the pool might very well be real. I think all women can relate to that level of rage and feeling of betrayal.
January 29, 2008 at 11:56 pm
No agenda there, just an angry moment.
Goodnight Rodger.
January 29, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Well wait, you said goodnight! I thought I wasn’t entertaining?
January 30, 2008 at 12:02 am
What justifies the anger? Again, your personal stake in this is what’s at issue. The only person who even remotely has a right to be as upset as you are about my posting is Jo Gillis herself. And I would accept it coming from her. Coming from you … no. You may have a dog in this fight but let it off it’s leash to defend itself or STFU.
January 30, 2008 at 12:07 am
I was not upset about the posting, I just didn’t think it should go unchallenged. Period no agenda. Then you said more, and ditto.
Sorry I don’t see a contradiction between my comment on Jo’s site and what I posted about the image. It’s a play on the movie but it’s also about Jo’s personal story, and yes, women do relate.
If you’re wondering why I’m still here it’s because I’m enjoying the conversation. I haven’t talked to you for a long time.
January 30, 2008 at 12:08 am
ps I only admit to upsettedness with regard to thinking you blocked my comments
January 30, 2008 at 12:17 am
I was not upset about the posting, I just didn’t think it should go unchallenged.
How dare you insult the intelligence of my readers. Do you not think they would have challenged this piece? Certainly Julie Scott did and certainly there will be more. I fully expected that, that’s why I approved your comments instead of trashing them, as Jo would’ve done if I attempted to leave a comment at her site. We believe in free speech here at Carver’s Dog, whether we agree with that speech or not.
But revisionist’s don’t believe in alternative points of view. They want to rewrite history.
January 30, 2008 at 12:32 am
So what should we do now, bore them to death? Does anyone care about this but you and I?
I am one of your readers FYI. I always have been so I have as much of a right to challenge as anyone else. I told you why I did it anonymously, and I originally planned to say my piece and move on — then it snowballed — but I still don’t think I was unfair.
I don’t speak for anyone but myself, and I told you I don’t want to discuss revisionist history here. Not every bit of dirty laundry has to be aired.
January 30, 2008 at 12:33 am
Let me restate that: revisionst’s want us to believe their version of history. Funny how this conversation has come back full circle to the opening sentence of my piece
“I have never seen anyone exploit the death of a relationship quite like Josephine Gillis”
That’s what she’s done, that’s what she will continue to do, because it’s all she’s got.
January 30, 2008 at 12:38 am
Well, I know that Valentine Bonnaire doesn’t care. All she wants to do is discuss Michael Ondaatje. Bless her little heart. A pure one, she is. Knows how to keep it on point.
January 30, 2008 at 12:54 am
I’m sorry you still feel that way because nothing could be further from the truth. Again, I speak only for myself and about things I have personally witnessed.
Did I not try to take it to email? You didn’t want to, and every time you shoo me out of here you call me back in with another accusation of a hidden agenda with a question mark at the end of it. I don’t have one, do you get it now?
January 30, 2008 at 12:58 am
I want to say a final goodnight but I’d like not to leave on bad terms.
January 30, 2008 at 4:56 am
As I’ve been reading the ongoing and rather cryptic saga in the comments, the line, “Sometimes I get stalkers in my life” kept running through my head.
http://8763wonderland.wordpress.com/2006/01/14/a-sexual-obsession-with-soup-pots/
…
January 30, 2008 at 9:10 am
Cryptic yes, stalker no, but thanks. I did think it was fair to allow Rodger to question my motives since I questioned his, and I was prepared to defend my position, as he was his. No need to turn an intense disagreement into something that it wasn’t, cryptic or not.
I would like to end this here, so any further questioning of my motives will have to go unanswered…until next time
I’ll close once again with sincere best wishes for success in all of your future endeavors, Mr Jacobs, and one more “take care of yourself” for the road.
January 30, 2008 at 10:56 am
Man do I feel like I’m knocking on the door of a party house with a 12-pack of Modelo two days after the cops raided the place, and all that’s left is a bunch of crime scene tape, dried blood spray, a whole lotta half-empty glasses and cigarette packs and some broken furniture. Somewhere in the distance a coyote his howling.
On top of that I’ve got nothing much to bring to the scene other than I’m a huge fan of both you and Jo. You’re the survivingest survivor I know and an awesome writer and I’m so glad to see you and your blog back in action (though I won’t truly be satisfied until the both of you are based here back in L.A.). Jo and I bonded with her encouragement during my successful battle of the bulge two years ago and I’ve been checking in with her steadily ever since.
I now know more than I wanted to in regards to the backstory between the two of you but I’m the last person to take issue with your right to get the shit off your shoulders and the last person to pass judgment. I’d only bet that when the times were good you two kicked ass.
January 30, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Hey–!
I’m so surprised by this whole thing o my god. Well, maybe not because when I was on a writers list in the web we used to get in fights sometimes over the story content. It occurs to me that the online world and real world have overlapped in this weird way,
The way I met Rodger in here was over K B r a v e r m a n, when the whole LA scene was saying mean stuff about her and I think both R & I came to her defense in the web. Then we had a few emails and turns out he used to write for a place I’ve been pubbed, and even stranger than that, he made a documentary with my real life (estranged) stepfather in it.
How’s that for? Odd. But, I love the way that he writes, I swear. I like the way that the blog looks and feels. It’s really strange how you can “like” a person in here because of who they are as “text” and “image”—-it’s like a thoughtstream, or, billions of thoughtstreams from minds all over the world. So, when I was in Las Vegas, had I known R was there, I would have gladly taken him to dinner, on me! I swear. Not for anything other than friendship though. I think it’s kind of like how Kitty sent him books?
I hope we never have an argument….geez. And I hope the two of you will give each other a break, since you are both in here, in this “otherworld” of the web–but a world that is also real life, in some curious newfangled way. After I got off that writers list it was like withdrawal from a community of “friends” and an enemy or two. The way I can find those writers now is because they have web pages. After R moved to San Fran sometimes I stopped by Wonderland and I was really worried when he didn’t post for months and months. But in a way that is what some of us go through as writers. Black spells right?
Anybody who writes like Ondaatje and Rodger, (’cause there is a sameness to the way they see things) is going to have Black Spells. I know I do.
Anyway, that must be how virtual reality friends are?
The guy I hated on that list wrote this creepy, torture-filled shit and I think he was really sort of sick except he had women swooning over him calling him Master. I could never get it–but I hated him and I do to this day — And the crazy thing is, he’s in here if I were to go and look, but I just never will.
It never dawned to me we could be so “known” for our intellect via text– but I think who we are as text is probably who we are as people? If we were all sitting at Vesuvio, say?
Anyway, the last few years I had lots of “death” of parents. I dropped out of all my web projects during that time. But my old “web” friends and editors still are, and so I was really glad to find R again too. Some of them have all that myspace & facebook and all of that because they are promoting their books for sale?
That writers group exp was a huge lesson for me. I won’t do that again, and I will choose online people that I resonate with for community. I guess once you get in here, you are in here if you come back? But it is a huge world as well. People can stay away from each other if they don’t like each other, or at least just leave each other alone?
Will Campbell above said it best in that first graf above.
January 30, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Man do I feel like I’m knocking on the door of a party house with a 12-pack of Modelo two days after the cops raided the place, and all that’s left is a bunch of crime scene tape, dried blood spray, a whole lotta half-empty glasses and cigarette packs and some broken furniture. Somewhere in the distance a coyote his howling.
January 30, 2008 at 2:53 pm
V - I think for writers the leap is not so great. What we know of any author lies in the words they write. The difference is that in places like this the walls and middle men have been stripped away.
January 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I’ve learned a great deal about writing from Rodger. And I love the titles he comes up with! My favorite will always be “Winona Ryder Suffers For Your Sins” from his book, “Christopher Walken and the Tuna Fish Sandwich and Other L.A. Stories.” When I needed a title for a short story, I used RJ’s style to come up with “Stuck In An Elevator With Mandy Patinkin.”
RJ is also the most honest writer I’ve known, something I need to work on myself.
…
January 30, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Thanks, K. I liked the Patinkin story and still recall that humorous interaction you had with the gay foot fetishists.
January 30, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Older Barefoot Gents
…
January 30, 2008 at 7:46 pm
That’s it!!!
January 31, 2008 at 12:18 am
It would’ve been a pleasure to have a drink with you at Vesuvio, Val.
January 31, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Perhaps one day we will. Thanks to you, I was able to see my “father” — right before he passed. My mother was a rebellious Altadena girl. In the late ’50s she was up in San Fran at City Lights hanging around all those poets. Rodger, you are the closest thing to ? The Algonquin circle. It’s like a literary Salon, here.
ps: Like Kitty, I expect to learn massive amounts from Rodger. Just hanging around the way he does dialogue. Very few can really do that well.
&ps2: Julie and David, I want to apologize for not being able to publish that piece you sent me. David is a very fine writer. Death kind of waylaid all me plans, that way.
Anyway, if you want to read a really fantastic piece of writing by Rodger, it’s about being on the wharf where Jack London drank, in that bar. It’s posted in another place in the web but this one time I found it. Whew. (What a writer). Tipping my hat across this divide.
January 31, 2008 at 12:28 pm
That was “Ghost Land” for Dead Drunk Dublin, Val:
http://www.deaddrunkdublin.com/stories/rodger_jacobs/ghost_land.html
June 17, 2008 at 3:26 pm
The above exchanges have been the best diversion I’ve had in ages.
Since breaking C out of the joint they stuck her in, life has been too exciting at home to get much work done. In time, the pendulum swings will dampen; entropy and friction does modify their amplitude. Or so it says in my large, red PDR.
Reading the above has completely erased the topic on CL that brought me here. But it must have been good, or why else whould I have come?
Old Mack is going to give up his handle and be straight with readers; I’m Ron McKinney and not so damned old today.
June 17, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Mack, the topic that brought you were from the CL forum was the identity of the Long Time Brimmer Fan person in this thread and the so-called Long Time Forum Contributor troll at CL. I think they are one and the same person.