
“I thought I had something there. I did. I had a lot of trouble.”
Charles Bukowski
Last night, Miss L requested that I stop participating in the writers forum at Craigs List because the environment there has become toxic; not momentarily toxic, the way some public forums are known to get when hostile trolls stop in for an extended visit, but venomous and mean-spirited for a long time now. And Craig Newmark? He’s hopeless. I don’t know how many times that schmuck will have to face a lawsuit before he begins enforcing his own Terms of Use. A TOU is pointless if left unenforced, merely a set of suggestions for acceptable community behavior.
I first started particpating in the online Literature and Writing community at Craigs List — fondly referred to by regulars as “The LitFo” — in 2000 when I found myself living in the lonely little town of Vacaville, California, 50 miles north of San Francisco. I was far from L.A. and starved for conversation about books and writing, which was not to be had anywhere in Solano County.
In the beginning we had a good community in the LitFo, a balanced mix of professional freelance writers who used the board for networking and workshopping their speculative work, there were talented amateurs in need of a little grooming and guidance (one of them, Jen Wills, now runs her own very successful writers workshop online called Literary Mary), and just folks who wanted to chat about what they were reading. Most of the folks in the first demographic — the professionals, like my friend Octavio Solis, perhaps the most prominent Chicano playwright in the U.S. — are long gone, chased away by the trolls and the freaks and the naysayers and the vindictive real-world enemies who found a platform at the LitFo to anonymously snipe and smear and defame.
It’s not as if we didn’t beg Craig Newmark to do something about this. We did and we did so individually and en masse to absolutely no avail. The writers forum is not moderated; we tried that once a few years ago with one of the regulars at the time, Tamar Love, a professional freelance editor, but her efforts at keeping things running on a relatively even and peaceful keel were … well, they were not appreciated and Tamar, like Octavio, is no longer around but sorely missed by the few, like myself, who foolishly stuck around long after the water in the pool had been drained dry.
Not only is moderation verboten at the LitFo but so, too, is the notion of making the forum “registration only”. Folks who want to become regulars on the board are encouraged by others to register a handle (mine is Brimmer, the pseudonymous surname I used in porn) to foster a sense of responsibility for what one says; people are apt to be more responsible and reasonable if their real names, e-mail address, and blog or website URL are visible. Users who post without a handle (referred to as “grays” or “anons”) are highly suspect and are legion.
Over the last three years, starting around the time I waged an online and real-world war with Lori Scheirer (documented at the website Women Who Kill), the LitFo became a hazardous place to workshop material but I persisted in doing so anyway for one simple reason, as I explained to Miss L:
Ones detractors can sometimes, inadvertent to their actual purpose, be your best critic and mentor. They are looking for any loose brick they can find in your foundation. Their animosity can be the best teacher you ever had.
But I believe Miss L is correct. My infrequent visits to the LitFo these days are met with mostly venomous contempt; often, within seconds of posting a speculative work, I’ll be greeted with comments such as:
Must we continue to be burdened by your tripe? § < -justsayin > 12/25 15:46:45
Jesus Christ. Find a new whore other than writing already, will ya?
The game is getting old and stale. The trolls have become the regulars and they are often there 24/7. They are obsessive and their attacks are personal. Sure, several handles often come to my defense, pointing out that the detractors are displaying unpleasant obsessive behavior, but those are becoming fewer and further between as time goes on.
At present I can count off no less than three real-world enemies that I have acquired who lay in wait for me in the LitFo; one of them even made the mistake of coming here to Carver’s Dog to snipe at me in the comments on the Coming Through Slaughter thread and then ran back to the LitFo to crow about their efforts. Someone who was once very close to me, and who has suffered her whole life from untreated Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, once admitted to me that she “cannot resist trolling” the LitFo; at the time she made that unfortunate remark her target was Miss L (whom I met through the Craigs List Lit Fo).
When I was down and out in late 2006 there were some marvelous people from the LitFo who came to my aid via Pay Pal to prevent what was then an almost inevitable situation: homelessness. They know who they are and I love and admire each and every one of them; my detractors in the LitFo still speak of that dark episode but with derision (“Good old Brimmer with his hand out and his palm up,” they love to say).
And so it goes.
The LitFo can and will continue on without me and my detractors will undoubtedly find a new venue for spewing their venom. I know who most of them are and their sorority is far from unique: bitter, aging, insecure and hopeless hags sailing a broken ship with no horizon in sight. Keep searching, ladies, but for you there is nothing bright on the horizon, just more darkness and more storms until at last you find the solace you seek in the grave.
That is all.


LiteraryMary would be happy to have you, dawg.
Woof.
–
Okay,
Father Luke
By: Father Luke on December 27, 2008
at 5:14 pm
I second Father Luke.
xxx
Jen
aka vodkafamilywinston
By: jeniferwills on December 27, 2008
at 7:02 pm
Rodg — they were probably jealous? Because you are good!
I used to be on a writer’s list m’self. The critiques people did were so effing savage you wouldn’t have believed it. Savage. I was part of the published stable over there — until they did an unethical thing and the best writers left. I miss the friends I had there — but?
The critiques they were doing really were hurtful to people. Monstrous, in fact. Not worth it.
Work alone, and among friends. You have them.
I just found out what a troll was not long ago from RD over the the Confluence. She founded it because of the same sort of savagery/censorship and in one year it grew by leaps and bounds — at least in WP you can control the comments — sometimes the people seem quite unhinged in a way.
I suppose a troll loves to be a critic? They seem to adore fouling places but, at the Conf. all the friends know if one has arrived and they quickly stop that.
It’s good to be reading you again, ummm…..
because you are a writer!
ahahaha!
hugs!
I wish you talked about screenplay crafting — not for that (past-history) kind but for the real thing? Anyway, those people know little about life if they can’t see how Buk et al go through PERIODS of poverty, ups and downs… it MAKES the writer. It does.
I want to be able to write a screenplay like “Ask the Dust” — look at Fante’s life.
The humanity is what comes through in your stuff. Honest as Carver and that is no small feat.
I do.
By: vbonnaire on December 27, 2008
at 8:15 pm
I do want to see you talk about screenplays? It got cut off.
ps: Rodg — on that list I was on? It was obvious who was who, pretty quick.
By: vbonnaire on December 27, 2008
at 8:22 pm
Pssssss: honest as Kate Braverman, which is how we met in here, ages ago. You and I both stood up to the LA crowd and defended her!
Ahem.
By: vbonnaire on December 27, 2008
at 8:42 pm
“those people know little about life if they can’t see how Buk et al go through PERIODS of poverty, ups and downs… it MAKES the writer.”
Right on, Valentine. Reasonable people know this.
By: Hurricane Shirley on December 27, 2008
at 9:17 pm
Correct, Val and Miss L.
The critiques people did were so effing savage you wouldn’t have believed it. Savage. I was part of the published stable over there — until they did an unethical thing and the best writers left.
Val, if you’re talking about the politics and back biting among the crowd at ERWA and Clean Sheets, I perfectly understand. I’ve been there and it’s long in my past, erased from my internet history and my bookmarks, if you will.
By: Rodger Jacobs on December 27, 2008
at 10:40 pm
What better “whore” than writing, Rodger? I think that’s the kindest compliment of all, though obviously not intended that way. Plus, it keeps us out of trouble (generally speaking) … and that our words CAN make a difference — even the tiniest bit of difference — in this crazy world … well, I’ll go to that whore anytime.
Best thing of all, she charges nothing but hard work for her services.
Cheers, yes — to the words, the very good words, the “better than good” words.
By: Geoff on December 28, 2008
at 11:17 am
Geoff, when hard work, luck, networking, and perseverence conspire together, writing is the only whore in the world who pays you.
By: Rodger Jacobs on December 28, 2008
at 1:54 pm
I have not been a regular at the litfo for many years now, in part because of all the mud-slinging that seemed(s) to have become the norm, but more so because I found I had nothing to say in the forums changing environment.
I continue to be a huge fan of your writing, and while my visits here are sporadic I find that by reading you I am encouraged in my own work. You make it look so easy, which to me is always the sign of a good writer.
Joe, aka Guzzle
By: HeyJoe on December 29, 2008
at 9:23 am
Thank you, Joe.
By the way, as something of an update, I discovered over the weekend while visiting and commenting at a few other blogs and websites that everyone is feeling a tad uptight and uber-sensitive of late. I might just keep my comments and meanderings anchored to Carver’s Dog for a spell. Safe harbor here.
By: Rodger Jacobs on December 29, 2008
at 10:28 am
Funny how I stumbled on to this, Rodger. It’s terribly sad, because you have invested the most toward maintaining a higher standard of excellence on the Literary Forum than anyone else, save for a few other stalwarts like Dickhero and IAA. I stepped away because I just couldn’t be distracted anymore for the mounting assignments I have been garnering. But I have to admit that the noxious anti-art, anti-learning, anti-experimentation atmosphere at the Forum really made my decision to withdraw very easy.
Occasionally, I do pop in to read what people are posting, but I’m continuously aghast at the vile insensitive juvenile posts that have overrun the place. I can hardly believe how many really valid literary posts are vilified and even bounced off the site. It used to be about writing; it’s good only for flame wars now. Shame.
You keep coming back, though. Your hide is tough, and you’re going to outlive the punks who fester in the litfo now. If you are serious about withdrawing completely, let me know when you’re starting your own forum. I’d be keen to join.
Oh, I bought your new book off Amazon! I’ll read in the new year.
Best,
Octavio
By: O Solis on December 30, 2008
at 8:53 pm
So good to see you, my friend, it’s been too long. I don’t have forum hosting software here but I may look into it; in the meantime we do have a pretty vibrant community of lit-minded commenters at Carver’s Dog. I’m pretty much done with the Lit Fo for the reasons I cited in this posting and for the reasons you cited in your comment. The anti-intellectual sway at the forum is strange, like landing in some fascist state that does not encourage thought outside that proscribed by iron law — which is no thought whatsoever outside of what the presiding party dictates and the presiding party dictates bad poetry with no form or function and as much juvenile psycho-babble as you can handle about bashing prositutes to death. There have been some strange, twisted souls lurking in there for far too long. They wanted control of the forum, they got it. I graciously bow away. And, like you, I’m too busy with professional assignments of late (and maintaning this blog) to be bothered with it all.
Happy New Year.
By: Rodger Jacobs on December 30, 2008
at 9:11 pm
Hey Rodger,
I have been mixing it up with some special folks from Las Vegas. Video artists. There was a show at the SFMOMA last week on video interpretations of Sin City and two of my friends had featured works in it. Two of the pieces included footage of the Sands Hotel implosion, which was pretty remarkable. The entire event closed with that excerpt from the film “Aria” which featured a beautiful Bridget Fonda in the “Tristan and Isolde” episode. It’s a strange town, Vegas, with this enormous investment in glitz and money and very little human connection being made. It’s a town with no history, always remaking itself, always destroying the old to make new for the outlandish. And still, real human interaction is almost an afterthought.
Anyway, I gotta read more stories about Las V. It seems like a fascinating town.
Yeah, the litfo, sad place. What literature persists there is an anomaly now.
Hey, I have a new play called Lydia playing at Yale Rep if you’re headed for New Haven in early February. If you can’t, don’t worry; it’s also about to be produced at the Marin Theatre Company in Mill Valley in March. And the Mark Taper Forum in April. It’s been drawing quite a bit of attention since its premiere in Denver last January.
Hope you and BowlOfCherries (sorry, couldn’t resist, old habit) have a fantabulously superbolicious party to usher in 2009, year one in the Obama Cycle.
Lotsa regards!
o.
By: O Solis on December 31, 2008
at 2:42 pm
Still in catch-up mode here. Just saw this.
At the time I arrived at LitFo in 2005, older regulars like you already saw the handwriting on the wall. I didn’t understand for awhile. After an initial adjustment period (which included a run-in with no less a personage than IAA), I loved it. Much of the writing was astonishingly good and fresh, stuff I’d never seen before.
The best thing for me was that reading work by the regulars (yours included of course) seemed to give me ideas for my own writing, almost every log-in. I did a lot of in-the-box stuff, and though unpolished, it sent my writing in experimental (for me) directions that I enjoyed playing with. Most valuable of all were the critiques. I had disliked my brief past forays into writing groups at libraries, because everyone was ridiculously polite. It took 10 minutes of complimenting for someone to get to the point of saying something useful – and even then it was couched in apologies and parentheticals that droned on, in case the writer’s feelings should get hurt.
None of that nonsense on LitFo.
It’s exactly as you said to Miss L, above:
“Ones detractors can sometimes, inadvertent to their actual purpose, be your best critic and mentor. They are looking for any loose brick they can find in your foundation. Their animosity can be the best teacher you ever had.”
I valued and needed my own detractors. I still do, except the current crop just says something vicious about me personally (my age, my gender, etc) and nothing helpful about the writing. Well, not just me – the trolls and the truly mentally sick do it to everyone. At this point also, the discussions of literature are either inane or non-existent, and the writing is minimal. The good writing is nearly extinct.
It’s a sad place, though I’m still attached to it. Addicted, would be a more honest word. For one thing,I’ve never seen the quick and easy interface in any other forum, and it makes all other sites seem cumbersome. Then too, my basic Pollyanna nature probably deludes me into believing LitFo will turn into a thriving site once again and the old regulars will return en masse – though common sense says otherwise.
It’s gone, Rodger, you’re right.
I’m lucky I found it when I did. I made some friends and found your blog.
Tejas/Swann
By: Sandy on January 4, 2009
at 8:18 am
The “old regulars” are not returning, Sandy, so you can safely abandon that ship; they still peek behind the curtain every so often but the personal snipes that are made by the trolls are more than any serious student of writing and lit should be asked to shoulder and endure. I would hardly consider “comments” and “feedback” such as “Lick my hairy ass” to be conducive to anything except advancing a dialogue on the schoolyard. Ask yourself what some of those people who have no interest in engaging in a meaningful discussion about books are doing there? And they are there a lot, sometimes it feels like 24 hours a day. Paradox: the LitFo cannot have moderators but they can have 24 hour trolling … that’s why there’s such a “quick and easy interface”. Some people see a home with leaky plumbing and rotting floorboards as a “fixer-upper” and a challenge. I say, “Drive me around the block, please, so I can get a look at some of the other houses in the market.”
By: Rodger Jacobs on January 4, 2009
at 1:07 pm
Yep.
By: Sandy on January 4, 2009
at 9:47 pm
If you concur, S, then my advice is to stay the hell out of there. It’s poison; as I said in this post, I personally know some of the “grays” and “anons” in there and they are not interested in lit, just in tearing people down and, in particular, anyone with a known association with or past history of a fondness toward me and my work.
I mean look at this:
Rodger Jacobs RIP 01/04 21:08:32
For those of you who follow the work of long time regular lit forum contributor Rodger Jacobs (Brimmer), he died last night at the age of 49. No immediate cause of death was given. Obit published in this mornings Las Vegas Sun (Jan 4).
RIP Rodger. Be sure to tip one back for all the fella.
By: Rodger Jacobs on January 4, 2009
at 10:06 pm
So, Sandy, if you want to continue to participate in that kind of bullshit in the interest of feeding your addiction, go right ahead. As for me, after years of warnings to Mr. Newmark that this must stop, I have finally sent him an e-mail threatening civil action.
By: Rodger Jacobs on January 4, 2009
at 10:35 pm
Saw it, flagged it, requested permanent 86′ing for the poster (at least, on that one computer). I decided not to tell you that you died, in case you decided to stop writing or something.
That sounds like I’m making light of it all, Rodger, which I’m not.
Yes, I am seriously questioning my involvement at this point. I can think of several higher-quality addictions I can take up, instead.
By: Sandy on January 5, 2009
at 11:03 am
Last night, in light of that premature obit in the Lit Fo, Miss L said to me: “What did you expect? You knew this would happen when you left.” Proof that the majority of stalking and trolling is directly aimed at me. I mean, shit, they can’t stop talking about me even when I’m no longer a presence there. They got what they wanted, I’m no longer there. Or is that what they really wanted?
I’ve carefully combed through the CL Terms of Use and it is clear that after multiple warnings, Newmark and crew are willfully allowing users to violate the TOU; no amount of indemnification clauses can protect them from that and if the behavior continues (people are watching on my behalf), I will send a cease and desist to his lawyer.
By: Rodger Jacobs on January 5, 2009
at 2:59 pm
[...] hand side over there titled Top Reads, you’ll see that the December 27, 2008 posting titled Goodbye Lito Fo, a chronicle of my stalkers and trolls at the Craigs List Literary Forum, has moved to the number [...]
By: Lit Fo Redux « Carver’s Dog on April 27, 2009
at 5:07 pm
Hey this came up on google, litfo.
Just wanted to say hey, how’s things. Enjoyed many of your posts. Likewise on litfo, best in small doses. I’m off for a few weeks so I’ve been reading some stuff. Still moderate trolling, not as vile as six months ago. Some new trolls. The quality of writing isn’t as imaginative. More me, me, me. Lots of new people playing with words.
I should say thanks for turning me onto wordpress, I visited this or another site of yours back in the day and was impressed. Read a lot. You got chops, buddy. (jam speak for skill) and I enjoyed your writing. I must investigate what you did with the coyote stories and if the one armed bar girl is still around. I’ll check back.
So re: your post, you may or may not recall my own little go with the trolls, much of it for laughs. The end result? A lot of perspective, understanding the cell they wall themselves into, their slavery to ‘vile’ as an addiction. Their fear. Pitiful. I may write something about it, who knows…you should write it.
a cheer to the living side
g
By: Gaboo on July 17, 2009
at 7:38 pm
Then again, I was just there and you’re getting slagged as I write. What is the back history on the regs? Who got their toes stepped on? I have a few suspicions from 7, 8 months back, because I search colloquialisms in the troll’s posts. The more they chatter, the greater the profile develops in search function. Also, when specific regs show up, so does the same phraseology in trolling posts. Something else happened around spring 2008? Or was it earlier. Someone besides this Miss L jumped on the band wagon. I went back in the posts by my own bookmarks and can see a point when the level of personal attacks on you increased exponentially. About the same time some others dropped off. Sorry, I have a wannabe detective gene.
By: Gaboo on July 17, 2009
at 11:01 pm
edit: As indicated by Miss L, someone besides the original perp jumped on the band wagon.
By: Gaboo on July 17, 2009
at 11:10 pm
It’s late here, but my mind plays on your post. If you’re not into the angle I’m seeing, just nix my comment.
I did some looking. The case: infringement of equal participation; libel. A quick search of the handle reveals enough references to show ‘Brimmer’ was harassed. Another search of Rodger Jacobs /forums/?SQ=rodger+jacobs&act=RSR&forumID=27
shows only four ‘potentials’ since 2008, one of which /forums/?ID=123875180 is distinctly libelous, if you were affected. The obit is harassment, but could also be deemed satire–you’re kind of a celeb. Didn’t Winston Churchill suffer that rumor? Pretty much everything else is complimentary or your own posts. Enough for a civil case, hmmm. Do you have ownership of the brand ‘Brimmer’?
What struck me, however is that this is sort of newsworthy. There’s glamor lull in entertainment media and Perez Hilton and Michael Jackson aren’t filling it. I can see the Youtube statements, discussions on the harangue of trolling.. CL is also pinging in the news lately on other harrassment/stalking issues; now the attacks on one specific writer! It’s a moral debate. It’s a decisive issue. People can take sides. And more important, people can support and investigate what this writer is all about by purchasing his books. I see a rash of press releases.
If you decide to take on this mission, this opportunity to thrust yourself in the limelight, think it through, envision the focus, the questions, the inquisition… does it feel right? This controversy may not be your ideal path. Many things may called into question, including your writing–that’s public life. Messaging must feathered out delicately.
If you do decide to go for it, consider me a supporter. It’s the principle of free speech and life’s a ride.
entrepreneurially,
g
By: Gaboo on July 18, 2009
at 1:16 am
The Lit Fo attacks began in 2006, Gaboo, but I was pretty much offline throughout ‘07 — although that didn’t stop the “Brimmer/Rodger Jacobs is dead” silliness and, yes, since I am something of a “public figure” some of the trollish behavior is protected speech. That’s the paradoxical joke there … these trolls attempt to downgrade my status as a professional, working writer and it is that very same (mid-level at best)status I enjoy that protects a great many of their slanderous comments. In other words, the joke’s on them.
By: Rodger Jacobs on July 21, 2009
at 10:07 am